WINE on Cygwin

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WINE on Cygwin

Informações
    Hey All,

    I'm seriously interested in making the WINESERVER work under Cygwin and
have been invistigating some of the issues related to this matter. One of
the WineHQ developers informed me that:

    "... the last time someone tried, the main obstacle was that cygwin
doesn't support sendmsg() to send file descriptors across processes, which
means that the wine server cannot work. This in turn means you cannot run
kernel32 or user32. "

    Some further invistigation shows that this is an old issue that has
arisen several times during the course of the Cygwin history. Does anybody
has any clue on the status of this issue ? Could anyone provide me some
useful information that I could take as an starting point for this
implementation ?

    Any other comments regarding the bulding/execution of the Wine under
Cygwin would be very welcome.

    FLu-X


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Re: WINE on Cygwin

Corinna Vinschen-2
On Nov  3 11:08, Informa??es wrote:

>    Hey All,
>
>    I'm seriously interested in making the WINESERVER work under Cygwin and
> have been invistigating some of the issues related to this matter. One of
> the WineHQ developers informed me that:
>
>    "... the last time someone tried, the main obstacle was that cygwin
> doesn't support sendmsg() to send file descriptors across processes, which
> means that the wine server cannot work. This in turn means you cannot run
> kernel32 or user32. "
>
>    Some further invistigation shows that this is an old issue that has
> arisen several times during the course of the Cygwin history. Does anybody
> has any clue on the status of this issue ?

It's still an issue.


Corinna

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Red Hat, Inc.

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Re: WINE on Cygwin

Andrew DeFaria-2
In reply to this post by Informações
Informa??es wrote:

>    Hey All,
>
>    I'm seriously interested in making the WINESERVER work under Cygwin
> and have been invistigating some of the issues related to this matter.
> One of the WineHQ developers informed me that:
>
>    "... the last time someone tried, the main obstacle was that cygwin
> doesn't support sendmsg() to send file descriptors across processes,
> which means that the wine server cannot work. This in turn means you
> cannot run kernel32 or user32. "
>
>    Some further invistigation shows that this is an old issue that has
> arisen several times during the course of the Cygwin history. Does
> anybody has any clue on the status of this issue ? Could anyone
> provide me some useful information that I could take as an starting
> point for this implementation ?
>
>    Any other comments regarding the bulding/execution of the Wine
> under Cygwin would be very welcome.
>
>    FLu-X

I guess I don't see the point. Isn't Wine an emulator for running
Windows apps on Unix/Linux? If so then why would you need it under
Cygwin as Cygwin already runs on Windows so if your want to run a
Windows apps, well then just run the Windows app!
--
Do Lipton employees take coffee breaks?


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Re: WINE on Cygwin

Alexander Gottwald
On Thu, 2005-11-03 at 07:41 -0800, Andrew DeFaria wrote:

> I guess I don't see the point. Isn't Wine an emulator for running
> Windows apps on Unix/Linux? If so then why would you need it under
> Cygwin as Cygwin already runs on Windows so if your want to run a
> Windows apps, well then just run the Windows app!

Sometimes it's useful to have a separation between the program and
windows. You could trace all registry or file access of a program. Wine
would be useful for remote program usage since it exports the display
via X11.

bye
        ago

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Re: WINE on Cygwin

Andy Moreton-2
On Thu, 03 Nov 2005 16:00:51 GMT, Alexander Gottwald wrote:

> On Thu, 2005-11-03 at 07:41 -0800, Andrew DeFaria wrote:
>
>> I guess I don't see the point. Isn't Wine an emulator for running
>> Windows apps on Unix/Linux? If so then why would you need it under
>> Cygwin as Cygwin already runs on Windows so if your want to run a
>> Windows apps, well then just run the Windows app!
>
> Sometimes it's useful to have a separation between the program and
> windows. You could trace all registry or file access of a program. Wine
> would be useful for remote program usage since it exports the display
> via X11.

This still sounds fairly pointless. the tools from sysinternals.com allow
you to monitor all file and registry access from an application. A VNC
client will solve your remote operation needs.

So what is the real reason for wanting to do something so perverse ?

    AndyM


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RE: WINE on Cygwin

Dave Korn
Andy Moreton wrote:

> On Thu, 03 Nov 2005 16:00:51 GMT, Alexander Gottwald wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 2005-11-03 at 07:41 -0800, Andrew DeFaria wrote:
>>
>>> I guess I don't see the point. Isn't Wine an emulator for running
>>> Windows apps on Unix/Linux? If so then why would you need it under
>>> Cygwin as Cygwin already runs on Windows so if your want to run a
>>> Windows apps, well then just run the Windows app!
>>
>> Sometimes it's useful to have a separation between the program and
>> windows. You could trace all registry or file access of a program. Wine
>> would be useful for remote program usage since it exports the display
>> via X11.
>
> This still sounds fairly pointless. the tools from sysinternals.com allow
> you to monitor all file and registry access from an application. A VNC
> client will solve your remote operation needs.
>
> So what is the real reason for wanting to do something so perverse ?
>
>     AndyM


  Well, how about sandboxing?  It's the ideal way to test out a virus or other
suspect warez: run it on a virtual machine where it can't escape into your
real one.


    cheers,
      DaveK
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Re: WINE on Cygwin

Alexander Gottwald
In reply to this post by Andy Moreton-2
On Thu, 2005-11-03 at 16:36 +0000, Andy Moreton wrote:

> > Sometimes it's useful to have a separation between the program and
> > windows. You could trace all registry or file access of a program. Wine
> > would be useful for remote program usage since it exports the display
> > via X11.
>
> This still sounds fairly pointless. the tools from sysinternals.com allow
> you to monitor all file and registry access from an application. A VNC
> client will solve your remote operation needs.
>
> So what is the real reason for wanting to do something so perverse ?
Because it can be done!

VNC is slow, there is no integration with the local desktop. You can't
work without interfering with the local desktop. Using wine just to
redirect the graphic display is overkill but unfortunatly the most
promising solution.

Separation is yet another reason.

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Re: WINE on Cygwin

Brian Dessent
In reply to this post by Dave Korn
Dave Korn wrote:

>   Well, how about sandboxing?  It's the ideal way to test out a virus or other
> suspect warez: run it on a virtual machine where it can't escape into your
> real one.

But WINE isn't a virtual machine, and it doesn't offer that kind of
protection.  You would need Xen / VMWare / etc for that.

Brian

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RE: WINE on Cygwin

Dave Korn
Brian Dessent wrote:
> Dave Korn wrote:
>
>>   Well, how about sandboxing?  It's the ideal way to test out a virus or
>> other suspect warez: run it on a virtual machine where it can't escape
>> into your real one.
>
> But WINE isn't a virtual machine, and it doesn't offer that kind of
> protection.  You would need Xen / VMWare / etc for that.

  Oh, I stand corrected.  You mean it doesn't even do
virtual-drive-in-a-file-on-the-real-HD then?  That's a shame.


    cheers,
      DaveK
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Re: WINE on Cygwin

Brian Dessent
Dave Korn wrote:

> > But WINE isn't a virtual machine, and it doesn't offer that kind of
> > protection.  You would need Xen / VMWare / etc for that.
>
>   Oh, I stand corrected.  You mean it doesn't even do
> virtual-drive-in-a-file-on-the-real-HD then?  That's a shame.

Well, considering WINE stands for WINE Is Not an Emulator...

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RE: WINE on Cygwin

Dave Korn
Brian Dessent wrote:
> Dave Korn wrote:
>
>>> But WINE isn't a virtual machine, and it doesn't offer that kind of
>>> protection.  You would need Xen / VMWare / etc for that.
>>
>>   Oh, I stand corrected.  You mean it doesn't even do
>> virtual-drive-in-a-file-on-the-real-HD then?  That's a shame.
>
> Well, considering WINE stands for WINE Is Not an Emulator...


  It doesn't need to be an emulator.  It translates file-system accesses from
something like "C:\foo.txt" into something that makes sense to the underlying
FS, yeh?  But that could just as easily be done by translating
device-driver-level read and write block calls into reads and writes to
sectors within a file on the host FS.  The issues of virtualisation/emulation
are entirely orthogonal to that.


    cheers,
      DaveK
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Re: WINE on Cygwin

Joe Smith-10
In reply to this post by Andrew DeFaria-2

> I guess I don't see the point. Isn't Wine an emulator for running
> Windows apps on Unix/Linux? If so then why would you need it under Cygwin
> as Cygwin already runs on Windows so if your want to run a Windows apps,
> well then just run the Windows app!

Well how about to support WINE development?
It would be quite nice to be able to run an app under windows and under WINE
at the same time to help differentiate between wine bugs and software bugs
(Including Windows bugs).




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Re: WINE on Cygwin

Eliah Kagan
In reply to this post by Alexander Gottwald
On 11/3/05, Alexander Gottwald <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Thu, 2005-11-03 at 16:36 +0000, Andy Moreton wrote:
>
> > > Sometimes it's useful to have a separation between the program and
> > > windows. You could trace all registry or file access of a program. Wine
> > > would be useful for remote program usage since it exports the display
> > > via X11.
> >
> > This still sounds fairly pointless. the tools from sysinternals.com allow
> > you to monitor all file and registry access from an application. A VNC
> > client will solve your remote operation needs.
> >
> > So what is the real reason for wanting to do something so perverse ?
>
> Because it can be done!
>
> VNC is slow, there is no integration with the local desktop. You can't
> work without interfering with the local desktop. Using wine just to
> redirect the graphic display is overkill but unfortunatly the most
> promising solution.
>
> Separation is yet another reason.

Not only is VNC slow, but VNC only lets one user log on and run
graphical programs at a time on Windows. It is possible to have
multiple simultaneous Remote Desktop sessions, but only with Windows
Terminal Server, which is expensive and pay-per-license (you need a
license for each login "slot"), and only runs on Windows Server
operating systems, which are also expensive. It would be very, very
nice to be able to run graphical Windows programs remotely using ssh
-X.

Does anyone know if there any other way to do this, besides with Wine?
(Perhaps something more native?)

-Eliah

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Re: WINE on Cygwin

Christopher Faylor-2
On Thu, Nov 03, 2005 at 05:20:57PM -0500, Eliah Kagan wrote:

>On 11/3/05, Alexander Gottwald <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>On Thu, 2005-11-03 at 16:36 +0000, Andy Moreton wrote:
>>>>Sometimes it's useful to have a separation between the program and
>>>>windows.  You could trace all registry or file access of a program.
>>>>Wine would be useful for remote program usage since it exports the
>>>>display via X11.
>>>
>>>This still sounds fairly pointless.  the tools from sysinternals.com
>>>allow you to monitor all file and registry access from an application.
>>>A VNC client will solve your remote operation needs.
>>>
>>>So what is the real reason for wanting to do something so perverse ?
>>
>>Because it can be done!
>>
>>VNC is slow, there is no integration with the local desktop.  You can't
>>work without interfering with the local desktop.  Using wine just to
>>redirect the graphic display is overkill but unfortunatly the most
>>promising solution.
>>
>>Separation is yet another reason.
>
>Not only is VNC slow, but VNC only lets one user log on and run
>graphical programs at a time on Windows.  It is possible to have
>multiple simultaneous Remote Desktop sessions, but only with Windows
>Terminal Server, which is expensive and pay-per-license (you need a
>license for each login "slot"), and only runs on Windows Server
>operating systems, which are also expensive.  It would be very, very
>nice to be able to run graphical Windows programs remotely using ssh
>-X.
>
>Does anyone know if there any other way to do this, besides with Wine?
>(Perhaps something more native?)

Since we seem to have gotten pretty far afield from anything
cygwin-related (Corinna has already indicated that Cygwin doesn't do
what was originally requested) maybe it would be best to take this to
another forum.

I do have to say that this may be the first time I've ever heard anyone
indicate that they wanted to use cygwin because it gave them a speed
advantage, though...

cgf

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Re: WINE on Cygwin

Eliah Kagan
On 11/3/05, Christopher Faylor <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Thu, Nov 03, 2005 at 05:20:57PM -0500, Eliah Kagan wrote:
> >On 11/3/05, Alexander Gottwald <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >>On Thu, 2005-11-03 at 16:36 +0000, Andy Moreton wrote:
> >>>>Sometimes it's useful to have a separation between the program and
> >>>>windows.  You could trace all registry or file access of a program.
> >>>>Wine would be useful for remote program usage since it exports the
> >>>>display via X11.
> >>>
> >>>This still sounds fairly pointless.  the tools from sysinternals.com
> >>>allow you to monitor all file and registry access from an application.
> >>>A VNC client will solve your remote operation needs.
> >>>
> >>>So what is the real reason for wanting to do something so perverse ?
> >>
> >>Because it can be done!
> >>
> >>VNC is slow, there is no integration with the local desktop.  You can't
> >>work without interfering with the local desktop.  Using wine just to
> >>redirect the graphic display is overkill but unfortunatly the most
> >>promising solution.
> >>
> >>Separation is yet another reason.
> >
> >Not only is VNC slow, but VNC only lets one user log on and run
> >graphical programs at a time on Windows.  It is possible to have
> >multiple simultaneous Remote Desktop sessions, but only with Windows
> >Terminal Server, which is expensive and pay-per-license (you need a
> >license for each login "slot"), and only runs on Windows Server
> >operating systems, which are also expensive.  It would be very, very
> >nice to be able to run graphical Windows programs remotely using ssh
> >-X.
> >
> >Does anyone know if there any other way to do this, besides with Wine?
> >(Perhaps something more native?)
>
> Since we seem to have gotten pretty far afield from anything
> cygwin-related (Corinna has already indicated that Cygwin doesn't do
> what was originally requested) maybe it would be best to take this to
> another forum.
>
> I do have to say that this may be the first time I've ever heard anyone
> indicate that they wanted to use cygwin because it gave them a speed
> advantage, though...
>
> cgf

cgf--

It would seem to me that making an arbitrary window application use
X11 to draw its windows would involve cygwin.

I recognize that as moderator, it's your call. If you say nothing more
on it, nor shall I.

Would it be appropriate to move this to the Cygwin-X list?

-Eliah

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Re: WINE on Cygwin

Christopher Faylor-2
On Thu, Nov 03, 2005 at 06:25:17PM -0500, Eliah Kagan wrote:
>It would seem to me that making an arbitrary window application use
>X11 to draw its windows would involve cygwin.

Not necessarily.

>I recognize that as moderator, it's your call. If you say nothing more
>on it, nor shall I.
>
>Would it be appropriate to move this to the Cygwin-X list?

Er, if you are going to discuss X, I guess so.  Knowing how these things
go, however, I think it will be a fruitless discussion until someone
starts actually coding.

This issue has come up repeatedly over the years so I doubt that anyone
is going to come up with a magic solution.

cgf

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Re: WINE on Cygwin

Alexander Gottwald
In reply to this post by Eliah Kagan
On Thu, 2005-11-03 at 18:25 -0500, Eliah Kagan wrote:

> It would seem to me that making an arbitrary window application use
> X11 to draw its windows would involve cygwin.

> Would it be appropriate to move this to the Cygwin-X list?

There has been discussion in http://cygwin.com/ml/win32-x11/2002-q3/ and
following but without any improvements. this topic comes up on
cygwin-xfree from time to time but silences right after I point to the
archived discussions.

If you wan't to discuss this, use the win32-x11 mailinglist.

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