Please stop sending email to corinna-cygwin and lh-cygwin

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Please stop sending email to corinna-cygwin and lh-cygwin

Christopher Faylor-8
I know that this is a pointless exercise but I'll say it anyway: people
who think that they can have a private chat with Corinna or Larry by
sending email to what seem to be their private email addresses will just
show up in the spam trap, possibly even causing spamassassin to think
that they are a spammer.

We mention in multiple places that cygwin-related issues should go to
this list.  So, please don't bother trying to send private email unless
you've been specifically asked to do so.  You'll also be doing me a
favor because I won't have to spend time cleaning out the spam traps.

Thank you.

cgf

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Re: Please stop sending email to corinna-cygwin and lh-cygwin

PolarStorm
Christopher Faylor-8 wrote
I know that this is a pointless exercise but I'll say it anyway: people
who think that they can have a private chat with Corinna or Larry by
sending email to what seem to be their private email addresses will just
show up in the spam trap, possibly even causing spamassassin to think
that they are a spammer.

We mention in multiple places that cygwin-related issues should go to
this list.  So, please don't bother trying to send private email unless
you've been specifically asked to do so.  You'll also be doing me a
favor because I won't have to spend time cleaning out the spam traps.
Well, here goes nothing.

I am happy to admit that I'm one of those persons. The problem is exactly
that what you claim we "should do" versus what is actually possible to do.
If any of the list maintainers had actually bothered to try to register to these
email lists, you would probably have found out that your spam filters are set so
high, that it is impossible for normal people to even register to these lists!

So then what are you supposed to do? In addition you do not mention anywhere
what to do and who to contact, when you have problems registering to this list.

Trust me, I have tried in this last week to get properly registered using at least 3
different email addresses (one gmail and two professional ones under the domain
names of the companies I work for.) Every time the response is that the
confirmation emails are blocked due to anti-spam score of over 500. I should
also mention that I am a member of several other email lists with these accounts,
and nver had any problem with these before. So I thought perhaps my email
domains are located on a shared and spammy subdomain. But that investigation
was also negative.

So to conclude, it is really your own fault that people are desperate to try to
contact anyone on this list, to help them out. I can't begin to imagine how many
bug reports you are loosing because of people not being able to contact you or
report their findings. I have now given up, as anything that shows here has the
warning that  it has not been approved by the list.

Finally, I find it very hard to understand why the Cygwin developers keep on
insisting on using this outdated (and obviously failing) 1990's email lists for their
main communication channel.

Good Luck and Best Wishes,

Gene Rederer
(CEO, developer and Cygwin user since ~10 years)

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Re: Please stop sending email to ...

Christopher Faylor-8
Just to be clear:  The intent of my email was to actually save people
from going to the pointless exercise of trying to contact Corinna or
Larry directly since it won't work.

On Tue, Mar 11, 2014 at 04:42:36PM -0700, Someone Who Took Personal Offense About General Advice wrote:

>Christopher Faylor-8 wrote
>> I know that this is a pointless exercise but I'll say it anyway: people
>> who think that they can have a private chat with Corinna or Larry by
>> sending email to what seem to be their private email addresses will just
>> show up in the spam trap, possibly even causing spamassassin to think
>> that they are a spammer.
>>
>> We mention in multiple places that cygwin-related issues should go to
>> this list.  So, please don't bother trying to send private email unless
>> you've been specifically asked to do so.  You'll also be doing me a
>> favor because I won't have to spend time cleaning out the spam traps.
>
>Well, here goes nothing.
>
>I am happy to admit that I'm one of those persons.  The problem is
>exactly that what you claim we "should do" versus what is actually
>possible to do.  If any of the list maintainers had actually bothered
>to try to register to these email lists, you would probably have found
>out that your spam filters are set so high, that it is impossible for
>normal people to even register to these lists!

FYI, The Cygwin list has 1212 subscribers with 89 new joiners since
January 1.  I'm the "list maintainer" and I'm obviously registered.
The same software that handles Cygwin also handles gcc.gnu.org and
sourceware.org.  There are many other mailing lists under those
domains, and some of them have even more subscribers.

I told you why your mail was blocked, indicated that I took steps to
correct the action, and told you were to send email if you had further
problems.  You have not availed yourself of that channel since I told
you about it (you did try to send email there prior to that point
though).  If you really do want to get to the bottom of your email
issues then please start a dialog with cygwin-owner or postmaster.
You'll still be talking to me but you won't be using this list for your
non-cygwin concerns.

You'd mentioned that you hadn't received notification that you'd been
subscribed so I checked on that.  You subscribed to cygwin-allow.  Our
mailing list software doesn't send confirmation notice when signing up
for *-allow.  It does when you actually subscribe.  So, since you aren't
subscribed to the actual cygwin list (under this email address at least)
you wouldn't have seen a subscription ACK.

But, anyway, subscribing to cygwin-allow or cygwin itself would only
slightly relax the spam checking.  It wouldn't have helped with the spam
block that you were seeing.  That required manual intervention on my
part.  As I said, I fixed that.

>So to conclude, it is really your own fault that people are desperate
>to try to contact anyone on this list, to help them out.

You're assuming facts not in evidence.  There was a specific email that
prompted one of my periodic reminders not to try to send private email
but it was not in *any* way a plaintive request for help.

But, regardless, if you think about it, sending email to
[hidden email] because you are frustrated about being spam blocked
when sending to [hidden email] doesn't make a whole lot of
sense.  What does make sense is following the link at the bottom of
http://cygwin.com/lists.html which leads you to:

https://sourceware.org/lists.html#faqs

If you follow that list then you get to:

https://sourceware.org/lists.html#spam

which *does* tell you where to send email if you feel you are being
inappropriately blocked.

>Good Luck and Best Wishes,
>
>Gene Rederer
>(CEO, developer and Cygwin user since ~10 years)

Same to you.

Chris Faylor
Kernel Programmer, Cygwin Contributor for 17 years, Cygwin Maintainer
for 16 years, and Schmuck who spends a lot of time doing complicated
stuff for people for free

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If you are having problems sending email here

Christopher Faylor-8
On Tue, Mar 11, 2014 at 09:53:52PM -0400, Christopher Faylor wrote:
>Just to be clear:  The intent of my email was to actually save people
>from going to the pointless exercise of trying to contact Corinna or
>Larry directly since it won't work.

To reiterate, here's the mailing list FAQ:

https://sourceware.org/lists.html#FAQ

The instructions there are designed to help work through most problems.

The most common problem by far is people sending html-formatted email.
I often see people who should know better sending html-formatted messages
multiple times, apparently in the hopes that one message will sneak by.

Second to this is people including raw email addresses in the subjects
or bodies of their messages.

Third is people sending email to various Cygwin personalities at
cygwin.com expecting to have a private chat (i.e., what prompted the
first message in this thread).

The html restriction is a sourceware.org policy so please don't attempt
to argue about it here.  This is also not the place to gripe about
"antiquated" mailing list software.  If you want to make a case for
changing something related to site policy (like html mail or
"antiquated" software), send email to overseers at this site.  If you
have email problems that can't be solved by reading the FAQ (this is a
rare occurence) then send email to cygwin-owner/postmaster.

Oh, and this should go without saying but before claiming that your
email isn't going through:

1) Check the archives (see http://cygwin.com/lists.html) to make sure
that it really didn't go through.

2) Check your spam filters to make sure that you haven't received a
helpful bounce message telling you what's wrong.  postmaster (aka me)
will want to see the bounce message if it's not html-related.

And, *please* don't reply to this message complaining that you did
everything and nothing worked.  If you are having problems send a short
note to postmaster (aka me) and I will work out what is going on.  I'll
even do it if you are bitter, angry, and lecturey.  I won't like you
much but I'll still help.

If you send email claiming that the system is saying that you are sending
html-formatted email and you know you're not I'll just point you at the
FAQ and make sure you know that our mail system is probably better than
you at noticing when email is formatted in html.

cgf

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Re: Please stop sending email to ...

Andrey Repin
In reply to this post by Christopher Faylor-8
Greetings, Christopher Faylor!

>>> I know that this is a pointless exercise but I'll say it anyway: people
>>> who think that they can have a private chat with Corinna or Larry by
>>> sending email to what seem to be their private email addresses will just
>>> show up in the spam trap, possibly even causing spamassassin to think
>>> that they are a spammer.
>>>
>>> We mention in multiple places that cygwin-related issues should go to
>>> this list.  So, please don't bother trying to send private email unless
>>> you've been specifically asked to do so.  You'll also be doing me a
>>> favor because I won't have to spend time cleaning out the spam traps.
>>
>>Well, here goes nothing.
>>
>>I am happy to admit that I'm one of those persons.  The problem is
>>exactly that what you claim we "should do" versus what is actually
>>possible to do.  If any of the list maintainers had actually bothered
>>to try to register to these email lists, you would probably have found
>>out that your spam filters are set so high, that it is impossible for
>>normal people to even register to these lists!

> FYI, The Cygwin list has 1212 subscribers with 89 new joiners since
> January 1.  I'm the "list maintainer" and I'm obviously registered.
> The same software that handles Cygwin also handles gcc.gnu.org and
> sourceware.org.  There are many other mailing lists under those
> domains, and some of them have even more subscribers.

The point was, it's nowhere mentioned, who to contact in case of list issues.
Not in list mail headers, neither on list's mailman web page.
I've had multiple mails blocked for containing  "foreign language" (how can I
help? It's Microsoft smarts to translate group names to make everyone
unhappy), and I multiple times tried to find the address to appeal to. To no
avail.
Yes, I vaguely recalled, that there supposed to be "<list>-owner" address,
but it's only my poor memory. How can I trust her without confirmation?


--
WBR,
Andrey Repin ([hidden email]) 12.03.2014, <15:38>

Sorry for my terrible english...


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Re: Please stop sending email to ...

Corinna Vinschen-2
On Mar 12 15:43, Andrey Repin wrote:

> Greetings, Christopher Faylor!
>
> >>> I know that this is a pointless exercise but I'll say it anyway: people
> >>> who think that they can have a private chat with Corinna or Larry by
> >>> sending email to what seem to be their private email addresses will just
> >>> show up in the spam trap, possibly even causing spamassassin to think
> >>> that they are a spammer.
> >>>
> >>> We mention in multiple places that cygwin-related issues should go to
> >>> this list.  So, please don't bother trying to send private email unless
> >>> you've been specifically asked to do so.  You'll also be doing me a
> >>> favor because I won't have to spend time cleaning out the spam traps.
> >>
> >>Well, here goes nothing.
> >>
> >>I am happy to admit that I'm one of those persons.  The problem is
> >>exactly that what you claim we "should do" versus what is actually
> >>possible to do.  If any of the list maintainers had actually bothered
> >>to try to register to these email lists, you would probably have found
> >>out that your spam filters are set so high, that it is impossible for
> >>normal people to even register to these lists!
>
> > FYI, The Cygwin list has 1212 subscribers with 89 new joiners since
> > January 1.  I'm the "list maintainer" and I'm obviously registered.
> > The same software that handles Cygwin also handles gcc.gnu.org and
> > sourceware.org.  There are many other mailing lists under those
> > domains, and some of them have even more subscribers.
>
> The point was, it's nowhere mentioned, who to contact in case of list issues.
> Not in list mail headers, neither on list's mailman web page.
> I've had multiple mails blocked for containing  "foreign language" (how can I
> help? It's Microsoft smarts to translate group names to make everyone
> unhappy), and I multiple times tried to find the address to appeal to. To no
> avail.
> Yes, I vaguely recalled, that there supposed to be "<list>-owner" address,
> but it's only my poor memory. How can I trust her without confirmation?
On the other hand, the "postmaster" account exists everywhere...


Corinna

--
Corinna Vinschen                  Please, send mails regarding Cygwin to
Cygwin Maintainer                 cygwin AT cygwin DOT com
Red Hat

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Re: Please stop sending email to ...

Adam Dinwoodie-2
In reply to this post by Andrey Repin
On Wed, Mar 12, 2014 at 03:43:11PM +0400, Andrey Repin wrote:
> The point was, it's nowhere mentioned, who to contact in case of list issues.
> Not in list mail headers, neither on list's mailman web page.
> I've had multiple mails blocked for containing  "foreign language" (how can I
> help? It's Microsoft smarts to translate group names to make everyone
> unhappy), and I multiple times tried to find the address to appeal to. To no
> avail.
> Yes, I vaguely recalled, that there supposed to be "<list>-owner" address,
> but it's only my poor memory. How can I trust her without confirmation?

It is mentioned in the email headers.  Looking at this email, for
example, I see the following header:

    List-Help: <mailto:[hidden email]>, <http://sourceware.org/ml/#faqs>

Alternatively, as cgf has already mentioned,
<http://cygwin.com/lists.html> states "If you have *any* questions or
problems with the mailing lists, see the Sourceware mailing list FAQs"
with a link to that same Sourceware page.  And that page includes the
following:

> 10.  I can't post because your spam software won't let me, and I want
> to tell you how unhappy I am
>
> ...
>
> If you have tried all the above techniques and are still unable to
> send email to a mailing list, then send email to postmaster at this
> site.  Be prepared to be mocked, if any of the above needs to be
> repeated to you, however.

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Re: Please stop sending email to ...

Christopher Faylor-8
On Wed, Mar 12, 2014 at 12:17:51PM +0000, Adam Dinwoodie wrote:

>On Wed, Mar 12, 2014 at 03:43:11PM +0400, Andrey Repin wrote:
>> The point was, it's nowhere mentioned, who to contact in case of list issues.
>> Not in list mail headers, neither on list's mailman web page.
>> I've had multiple mails blocked for containing  "foreign language" (how can I
>> help? It's Microsoft smarts to translate group names to make everyone
>> unhappy), and I multiple times tried to find the address to appeal to. To no
>> avail.
>> Yes, I vaguely recalled, that there supposed to be "<list>-owner" address,
>> but it's only my poor memory. How can I trust her without confirmation?
>
>It is mentioned in the email headers.  Looking at this email, for
>example, I see the following header:
>
>    List-Help: <mailto:[hidden email]>, <http://sourceware.org/ml/#faqs>
>
>Alternatively, as cgf has already mentioned,
><http://cygwin.com/lists.html> states "If you have *any* questions or
>problems with the mailing lists, see the Sourceware mailing list FAQs"
>with a link to that same Sourceware page.  And that page includes the
>following:

Thank you!  Can I get a gold star here for someone with good reading
skills?

cgf

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Re: Please stop sending email to ...

PolarStorm
This post has NOT been accepted by the mailing list yet.
In reply to this post by Christopher Faylor-8
First of all, I am in no way interested in any quarreling. I am very
sorry if I have not understood what is obvious to long-time mailing
list users. I am obviously not one of them, and always try to avoid
email lists as the plague. In the case of Cygwin, there seem to be no
alternative communication method. However, it is only thanks to
all your excellent support and maintenance of this product that have
prompted me join this list, so I could participate with my own support
when possible.

The current issue is that for a new and non-professional email list user,
the whole process of getting your posts across, to the right place, and
through the right filters without stepping on someones toes or getting
blocked and spending too much time, is in my recent experience,
excruciatingly painful. In addition, some of your (Christopher's) items
mentioned are not right. I'll try to point those out below.

Christopher Faylor-8 wrote
I told you why your mail was blocked, indicated that I took steps to
correct the action, and told you were to send email if you had further
problems.  You have not availed yourself of that channel since I told
you about it (you did try to send email there prior to that point
though).  If you really do want to get to the bottom of your email
issues then please start a dialog with cygwin-owner or postmaster.
You'll still be talking to me but you won't be using this list for your
non-cygwin concerns.
Thank you I appreciate that, but... I did try to send email to
cygwin-owner@cygwin.com and the response I got was this:

Hi. This is the qmail-send program at bounce.mail.unifiedlayer.com.
I'm afraid I wasn't able to deliver your message to the following addresses.
This is a permanent error; I've given up. Sorry it didn't work out.

<cygwin-owner@cygwin.com>:
x.x.x.x failed after I sent the message.
Remote host said: 552 spam score exceeded threshold
--- Enclosed are the original headers of the message.

You'd mentioned that you hadn't received notification that you'd been
subscribed so I checked on that.  You subscribed to cygwin-allow.  Our
mailing list software doesn't send confirmation notice when signing up
for *-allow.  It does when you actually subscribe.  So, since you aren't
subscribed to the actual cygwin list (under this email address at least)
you wouldn't have seen a subscription ACK.
Now, this is where people start to get confused. The "cygwin-allow" list is
not mentioned anywhere on the Cygwin list pages,
and neither or the Sourceware list pages.
And while were at it, the  "postmaster" email is not shown in clear text
anywhere, and stupid me, had no idea that postmaster was the actual
email address, although I'm still not sure, since I haven't tried to use it.  


What does make sense is following the link at the bottom of
http://cygwin.com/lists.html which leads you to:
https://sourceware.org/lists.html#faqs
If you follow that list then you get to:
https://sourceware.org/lists.html#spam
which *does* tell you where to send email if you feel you are being
inappropriately blocked.
No it doesn't. I doesn't make sense at all, that people should have to
navigate through 2 different sites, reading several pages and finally have
to guess the actual email address to use, in order to find your email being
rejected on mysterious grounds..

To what sensible person does the following make any sense?

Hi. This is the qmail-send program at sourceware.org.
I'm afraid I wasn't able to deliver your message to the following addresses.
This is a permanent error; I've given up. Sorry it didn't work out.

<cygwin@cygwin.com>:
Sorry, your message has been denied due to keywords found in your
subject.  This is probably due to an off-topic post.
See http://sourceware.org/lists.html#sourceware-list-info for more information.
Contact cygwin-owner@cygwin.com if you have questions about this. (#5.7.2)
--- Below this line is a copy of the message.
...
X-Spam-SWARE-Status: No, score=0.6 required=5.0
tests=AWL,BAYES_50,DONT_USE_RAW_EMAIL_IN_BODY,SPF_NEUTRAL,URI_HEX autolearn=no
version=3.3.2
X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.6 required=5.0
tests=AWL,BAYES_50,DONT_USE_RAW_EMAIL_IN_BODY,SPF_NEUTRAL,URI_HEX autolearn=no
version=3.3.2
X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on sourceware.org
X-Spam-Level:
...
Subject: Re: Cygwin subscription list blockage
...
So as you can see there are plenty of room for not understanding all this.

It doesn't help that it's not shown anywhere on your Nibble/SourceWare
account to what lists you ARE subscribed to, only repeated warnings that you
need to subscribe first, if you aren't already. How can I find out (without posting)?

Finally, do I need to re-send posts that are marked like this?
Or do they get sent and accepted to the list/thread automatically once you are
subscribed?



[Note the highlighted warning message above. What should I do with this information?]

I sincerely hope this help clarify some of the possible registration issues,
that new users face.

Best Regards,
Gene





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Re: Please stop sending email to ...

Andrey Repin
In reply to this post by Corinna Vinschen-2
Greetings, Corinna Vinschen!

>> >>> I know that this is a pointless exercise but I'll say it anyway: people
>> >>> who think that they can have a private chat with Corinna or Larry by
>> >>> sending email to what seem to be their private email addresses will just
>> >>> show up in the spam trap, possibly even causing spamassassin to think
>> >>> that they are a spammer.
>> >>>
>> >>> We mention in multiple places that cygwin-related issues should go to
>> >>> this list.  So, please don't bother trying to send private email unless
>> >>> you've been specifically asked to do so.  You'll also be doing me a
>> >>> favor because I won't have to spend time cleaning out the spam traps.
>> >>
>> >>Well, here goes nothing.
>> >>
>> >>I am happy to admit that I'm one of those persons.  The problem is
>> >>exactly that what you claim we "should do" versus what is actually
>> >>possible to do.  If any of the list maintainers had actually bothered
>> >>to try to register to these email lists, you would probably have found
>> >>out that your spam filters are set so high, that it is impossible for
>> >>normal people to even register to these lists!
>>
>> > FYI, The Cygwin list has 1212 subscribers with 89 new joiners since
>> > January 1.  I'm the "list maintainer" and I'm obviously registered.
>> > The same software that handles Cygwin also handles gcc.gnu.org and
>> > sourceware.org.  There are many other mailing lists under those
>> > domains, and some of them have even more subscribers.
>>
>> The point was, it's nowhere mentioned, who to contact in case of list issues.
>> Not in list mail headers, neither on list's mailman web page.
>> I've had multiple mails blocked for containing  "foreign language" (how can I
>> help? It's Microsoft smarts to translate group names to make everyone
>> unhappy), and I multiple times tried to find the address to appeal to. To no
>> avail.
>> Yes, I vaguely recalled, that there supposed to be "<list>-owner" address,
>> but it's only my poor memory. How can I trust her without confirmation?

> On the other hand, the "postmaster" account exists everywhere...

Not to argue, but postmaster is often not the right person to contact mailing
list owner.
Now, given proper explanation, I realize this is not the case for cygwin
mailing list, and I've already pinned Christopher's message for future
reference.


--
WBR,
Andrey Repin ([hidden email]) 12.03.2014, <23:32>

Sorry for my terrible english...


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Re: Please stop sending email to ...

Christopher Faylor-8
On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 12:56:46AM +0400, Andrey Repin wrote:

>Greetings, Corinna Vinschen!
>
>>> >>> I know that this is a pointless exercise but I'll say it anyway: people
>>> >>> who think that they can have a private chat with Corinna or Larry by
>>> >>> sending email to what seem to be their private email addresses will just
>>> >>> show up in the spam trap, possibly even causing spamassassin to think
>>> >>> that they are a spammer.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> We mention in multiple places that cygwin-related issues should go to
>>> >>> this list.  So, please don't bother trying to send private email unless
>>> >>> you've been specifically asked to do so.  You'll also be doing me a
>>> >>> favor because I won't have to spend time cleaning out the spam traps.
>>> >>
>>> >>Well, here goes nothing.
>>> >>
>>> >>I am happy to admit that I'm one of those persons.  The problem is
>>> >>exactly that what you claim we "should do" versus what is actually
>>> >>possible to do.  If any of the list maintainers had actually bothered
>>> >>to try to register to these email lists, you would probably have found
>>> >>out that your spam filters are set so high, that it is impossible for
>>> >>normal people to even register to these lists!
>>>
>>> > FYI, The Cygwin list has 1212 subscribers with 89 new joiners since
>>> > January 1.  I'm the "list maintainer" and I'm obviously registered.
>>> > The same software that handles Cygwin also handles gcc.gnu.org and
>>> > sourceware.org.  There are many other mailing lists under those
>>> > domains, and some of them have even more subscribers.
>>>
>>> The point was, it's nowhere mentioned, who to contact in case of list issues.
>>> Not in list mail headers, neither on list's mailman web page.
>>> I've had multiple mails blocked for containing  "foreign language" (how can I
>>> help? It's Microsoft smarts to translate group names to make everyone
>>> unhappy), and I multiple times tried to find the address to appeal to. To no
>>> avail.
>>> Yes, I vaguely recalled, that there supposed to be "<list>-owner" address,
>>> but it's only my poor memory. How can I trust her without confirmation?
>
>> On the other hand, the "postmaster" account exists everywhere...
>
>Not to argue, but postmaster is often not the right person to contact mailing
>list owner.
>Now, given proper explanation, I realize this is not the case for cygwin
>mailing list, and I've already pinned Christopher's message for future
>reference.

And presumably you won't argue with reference at the Cygwin list page which
says

"If you have any questions or problems with the mailing lists, see the Sourceware mailing list FAQs. "

and points you at a location which specifically answers your question.

The sourceware faq is mentioned *twice* at http://cygwin.com/lists.html so
your claims that it isn't mentioned anywhere would seem to indicate that you
didn't search too hard.  Ditto, your claim that nothing is mentioned in
the headers.

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Re: Please stop sending email to ...

Andrew Schulman
In reply to this post by Christopher Faylor-8

> >Alternatively, as cgf has already mentioned,
> ><http://cygwin.com/lists.html> states "If you have *any* questions or
> >problems with the mailing lists, see the Sourceware mailing list FAQs"
> >with a link to that same Sourceware page.  And that page includes the
> >following:
>
> Thank you!  Can I get a gold star here for someone with good reading
> skills?
>
> cgf

Awarded! http://cygwin.com/goldstars/#AD


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