I know that this is a pointless exercise but I'll say it anyway: people
who think that they can have a private chat with Corinna or Larry by sending email to what seem to be their private email addresses will just show up in the spam trap, possibly even causing spamassassin to think that they are a spammer. We mention in multiple places that cygwin-related issues should go to this list. So, please don't bother trying to send private email unless you've been specifically asked to do so. You'll also be doing me a favor because I won't have to spend time cleaning out the spam traps. Thank you. cgf -- Problem reports: http://cygwin.com/problems.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/ Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple |
Well, here goes nothing. I am happy to admit that I'm one of those persons. The problem is exactly that what you claim we "should do" versus what is actually possible to do. If any of the list maintainers had actually bothered to try to register to these email lists, you would probably have found out that your spam filters are set so high, that it is impossible for normal people to even register to these lists! So then what are you supposed to do? In addition you do not mention anywhere what to do and who to contact, when you have problems registering to this list. Trust me, I have tried in this last week to get properly registered using at least 3 different email addresses (one gmail and two professional ones under the domain names of the companies I work for.) Every time the response is that the confirmation emails are blocked due to anti-spam score of over 500. I should also mention that I am a member of several other email lists with these accounts, and nver had any problem with these before. So I thought perhaps my email domains are located on a shared and spammy subdomain. But that investigation was also negative. So to conclude, it is really your own fault that people are desperate to try to contact anyone on this list, to help them out. I can't begin to imagine how many bug reports you are loosing because of people not being able to contact you or report their findings. I have now given up, as anything that shows here has the warning that it has not been approved by the list. Finally, I find it very hard to understand why the Cygwin developers keep on insisting on using this outdated (and obviously failing) 1990's email lists for their main communication channel. Good Luck and Best Wishes, Gene Rederer (CEO, developer and Cygwin user since ~10 years) |
Just to be clear: The intent of my email was to actually save people
from going to the pointless exercise of trying to contact Corinna or Larry directly since it won't work. On Tue, Mar 11, 2014 at 04:42:36PM -0700, Someone Who Took Personal Offense About General Advice wrote: >Christopher Faylor-8 wrote >> I know that this is a pointless exercise but I'll say it anyway: people >> who think that they can have a private chat with Corinna or Larry by >> sending email to what seem to be their private email addresses will just >> show up in the spam trap, possibly even causing spamassassin to think >> that they are a spammer. >> >> We mention in multiple places that cygwin-related issues should go to >> this list. So, please don't bother trying to send private email unless >> you've been specifically asked to do so. You'll also be doing me a >> favor because I won't have to spend time cleaning out the spam traps. > >Well, here goes nothing. > >I am happy to admit that I'm one of those persons. The problem is >exactly that what you claim we "should do" versus what is actually >possible to do. If any of the list maintainers had actually bothered >to try to register to these email lists, you would probably have found >out that your spam filters are set so high, that it is impossible for >normal people to even register to these lists! FYI, The Cygwin list has 1212 subscribers with 89 new joiners since January 1. I'm the "list maintainer" and I'm obviously registered. The same software that handles Cygwin also handles gcc.gnu.org and sourceware.org. There are many other mailing lists under those domains, and some of them have even more subscribers. I told you why your mail was blocked, indicated that I took steps to correct the action, and told you were to send email if you had further problems. You have not availed yourself of that channel since I told you about it (you did try to send email there prior to that point though). If you really do want to get to the bottom of your email issues then please start a dialog with cygwin-owner or postmaster. You'll still be talking to me but you won't be using this list for your non-cygwin concerns. You'd mentioned that you hadn't received notification that you'd been subscribed so I checked on that. You subscribed to cygwin-allow. Our mailing list software doesn't send confirmation notice when signing up for *-allow. It does when you actually subscribe. So, since you aren't subscribed to the actual cygwin list (under this email address at least) you wouldn't have seen a subscription ACK. But, anyway, subscribing to cygwin-allow or cygwin itself would only slightly relax the spam checking. It wouldn't have helped with the spam block that you were seeing. That required manual intervention on my part. As I said, I fixed that. >So to conclude, it is really your own fault that people are desperate >to try to contact anyone on this list, to help them out. You're assuming facts not in evidence. There was a specific email that prompted one of my periodic reminders not to try to send private email but it was not in *any* way a plaintive request for help. But, regardless, if you think about it, sending email to [hidden email] because you are frustrated about being spam blocked when sending to [hidden email] doesn't make a whole lot of sense. What does make sense is following the link at the bottom of http://cygwin.com/lists.html which leads you to: https://sourceware.org/lists.html#faqs If you follow that list then you get to: https://sourceware.org/lists.html#spam which *does* tell you where to send email if you feel you are being inappropriately blocked. >Good Luck and Best Wishes, > >Gene Rederer >(CEO, developer and Cygwin user since ~10 years) Same to you. Chris Faylor Kernel Programmer, Cygwin Contributor for 17 years, Cygwin Maintainer for 16 years, and Schmuck who spends a lot of time doing complicated stuff for people for free -- Problem reports: http://cygwin.com/problems.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/ Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple |
On Tue, Mar 11, 2014 at 09:53:52PM -0400, Christopher Faylor wrote:
>Just to be clear: The intent of my email was to actually save people >from going to the pointless exercise of trying to contact Corinna or >Larry directly since it won't work. To reiterate, here's the mailing list FAQ: https://sourceware.org/lists.html#FAQ The instructions there are designed to help work through most problems. The most common problem by far is people sending html-formatted email. I often see people who should know better sending html-formatted messages multiple times, apparently in the hopes that one message will sneak by. Second to this is people including raw email addresses in the subjects or bodies of their messages. Third is people sending email to various Cygwin personalities at cygwin.com expecting to have a private chat (i.e., what prompted the first message in this thread). The html restriction is a sourceware.org policy so please don't attempt to argue about it here. This is also not the place to gripe about "antiquated" mailing list software. If you want to make a case for changing something related to site policy (like html mail or "antiquated" software), send email to overseers at this site. If you have email problems that can't be solved by reading the FAQ (this is a rare occurence) then send email to cygwin-owner/postmaster. Oh, and this should go without saying but before claiming that your email isn't going through: 1) Check the archives (see http://cygwin.com/lists.html) to make sure that it really didn't go through. 2) Check your spam filters to make sure that you haven't received a helpful bounce message telling you what's wrong. postmaster (aka me) will want to see the bounce message if it's not html-related. And, *please* don't reply to this message complaining that you did everything and nothing worked. If you are having problems send a short note to postmaster (aka me) and I will work out what is going on. I'll even do it if you are bitter, angry, and lecturey. I won't like you much but I'll still help. If you send email claiming that the system is saying that you are sending html-formatted email and you know you're not I'll just point you at the FAQ and make sure you know that our mail system is probably better than you at noticing when email is formatted in html. cgf -- Problem reports: http://cygwin.com/problems.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/ Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple |
In reply to this post by Christopher Faylor-8
Greetings, Christopher Faylor!
>>> I know that this is a pointless exercise but I'll say it anyway: people >>> who think that they can have a private chat with Corinna or Larry by >>> sending email to what seem to be their private email addresses will just >>> show up in the spam trap, possibly even causing spamassassin to think >>> that they are a spammer. >>> >>> We mention in multiple places that cygwin-related issues should go to >>> this list. So, please don't bother trying to send private email unless >>> you've been specifically asked to do so. You'll also be doing me a >>> favor because I won't have to spend time cleaning out the spam traps. >> >>Well, here goes nothing. >> >>I am happy to admit that I'm one of those persons. The problem is >>exactly that what you claim we "should do" versus what is actually >>possible to do. If any of the list maintainers had actually bothered >>to try to register to these email lists, you would probably have found >>out that your spam filters are set so high, that it is impossible for >>normal people to even register to these lists! > FYI, The Cygwin list has 1212 subscribers with 89 new joiners since > January 1. I'm the "list maintainer" and I'm obviously registered. > The same software that handles Cygwin also handles gcc.gnu.org and > sourceware.org. There are many other mailing lists under those > domains, and some of them have even more subscribers. The point was, it's nowhere mentioned, who to contact in case of list issues. Not in list mail headers, neither on list's mailman web page. I've had multiple mails blocked for containing "foreign language" (how can I help? It's Microsoft smarts to translate group names to make everyone unhappy), and I multiple times tried to find the address to appeal to. To no avail. Yes, I vaguely recalled, that there supposed to be "<list>-owner" address, but it's only my poor memory. How can I trust her without confirmation? -- WBR, Andrey Repin ([hidden email]) 12.03.2014, <15:38> Sorry for my terrible english... -- Problem reports: http://cygwin.com/problems.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/ Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple |
On Mar 12 15:43, Andrey Repin wrote:
> Greetings, Christopher Faylor! > > >>> I know that this is a pointless exercise but I'll say it anyway: people > >>> who think that they can have a private chat with Corinna or Larry by > >>> sending email to what seem to be their private email addresses will just > >>> show up in the spam trap, possibly even causing spamassassin to think > >>> that they are a spammer. > >>> > >>> We mention in multiple places that cygwin-related issues should go to > >>> this list. So, please don't bother trying to send private email unless > >>> you've been specifically asked to do so. You'll also be doing me a > >>> favor because I won't have to spend time cleaning out the spam traps. > >> > >>Well, here goes nothing. > >> > >>I am happy to admit that I'm one of those persons. The problem is > >>exactly that what you claim we "should do" versus what is actually > >>possible to do. If any of the list maintainers had actually bothered > >>to try to register to these email lists, you would probably have found > >>out that your spam filters are set so high, that it is impossible for > >>normal people to even register to these lists! > > > FYI, The Cygwin list has 1212 subscribers with 89 new joiners since > > January 1. I'm the "list maintainer" and I'm obviously registered. > > The same software that handles Cygwin also handles gcc.gnu.org and > > sourceware.org. There are many other mailing lists under those > > domains, and some of them have even more subscribers. > > The point was, it's nowhere mentioned, who to contact in case of list issues. > Not in list mail headers, neither on list's mailman web page. > I've had multiple mails blocked for containing "foreign language" (how can I > help? It's Microsoft smarts to translate group names to make everyone > unhappy), and I multiple times tried to find the address to appeal to. To no > avail. > Yes, I vaguely recalled, that there supposed to be "<list>-owner" address, > but it's only my poor memory. How can I trust her without confirmation? Corinna -- Corinna Vinschen Please, send mails regarding Cygwin to Cygwin Maintainer cygwin AT cygwin DOT com Red Hat |
In reply to this post by Andrey Repin
On Wed, Mar 12, 2014 at 03:43:11PM +0400, Andrey Repin wrote:
> The point was, it's nowhere mentioned, who to contact in case of list issues. > Not in list mail headers, neither on list's mailman web page. > I've had multiple mails blocked for containing "foreign language" (how can I > help? It's Microsoft smarts to translate group names to make everyone > unhappy), and I multiple times tried to find the address to appeal to. To no > avail. > Yes, I vaguely recalled, that there supposed to be "<list>-owner" address, > but it's only my poor memory. How can I trust her without confirmation? It is mentioned in the email headers. Looking at this email, for example, I see the following header: List-Help: <mailto:[hidden email]>, <http://sourceware.org/ml/#faqs> Alternatively, as cgf has already mentioned, <http://cygwin.com/lists.html> states "If you have *any* questions or problems with the mailing lists, see the Sourceware mailing list FAQs" with a link to that same Sourceware page. And that page includes the following: > 10. I can't post because your spam software won't let me, and I want > to tell you how unhappy I am > > ... > > If you have tried all the above techniques and are still unable to > send email to a mailing list, then send email to postmaster at this > site. Be prepared to be mocked, if any of the above needs to be > repeated to you, however. -- Problem reports: http://cygwin.com/problems.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/ Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple |
On Wed, Mar 12, 2014 at 12:17:51PM +0000, Adam Dinwoodie wrote:
>On Wed, Mar 12, 2014 at 03:43:11PM +0400, Andrey Repin wrote: >> The point was, it's nowhere mentioned, who to contact in case of list issues. >> Not in list mail headers, neither on list's mailman web page. >> I've had multiple mails blocked for containing "foreign language" (how can I >> help? It's Microsoft smarts to translate group names to make everyone >> unhappy), and I multiple times tried to find the address to appeal to. To no >> avail. >> Yes, I vaguely recalled, that there supposed to be "<list>-owner" address, >> but it's only my poor memory. How can I trust her without confirmation? > >It is mentioned in the email headers. Looking at this email, for >example, I see the following header: > > List-Help: <mailto:[hidden email]>, <http://sourceware.org/ml/#faqs> > >Alternatively, as cgf has already mentioned, ><http://cygwin.com/lists.html> states "If you have *any* questions or >problems with the mailing lists, see the Sourceware mailing list FAQs" >with a link to that same Sourceware page. And that page includes the >following: Thank you! Can I get a gold star here for someone with good reading skills? cgf -- Problem reports: http://cygwin.com/problems.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/ Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple |
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In reply to this post by Christopher Faylor-8
First of all, I am in no way interested in any quarreling. I am very
sorry if I have not understood what is obvious to long-time mailing list users. I am obviously not one of them, and always try to avoid email lists as the plague. In the case of Cygwin, there seem to be no alternative communication method. However, it is only thanks to all your excellent support and maintenance of this product that have prompted me join this list, so I could participate with my own support when possible. The current issue is that for a new and non-professional email list user, the whole process of getting your posts across, to the right place, and through the right filters without stepping on someones toes or getting blocked and spending too much time, is in my recent experience, excruciatingly painful. In addition, some of your (Christopher's) items mentioned are not right. I'll try to point those out below. Thank you I appreciate that, but... I did try to send email to cygwin-owner@cygwin.com and the response I got was this:
Now, this is where people start to get confused. The "cygwin-allow" list is not mentioned anywhere on the Cygwin list pages, and neither or the Sourceware list pages. And while were at it, the "postmaster" email is not shown in clear text anywhere, and stupid me, had no idea that postmaster was the actual email address, although I'm still not sure, since I haven't tried to use it. No it doesn't. I doesn't make sense at all, that people should have to navigate through 2 different sites, reading several pages and finally have to guess the actual email address to use, in order to find your email being rejected on mysterious grounds.. To what sensible person does the following make any sense? So as you can see there are plenty of room for not understanding all this. It doesn't help that it's not shown anywhere on your Nibble/SourceWare account to what lists you ARE subscribed to, only repeated warnings that you need to subscribe first, if you aren't already. How can I find out (without posting)? Finally, do I need to re-send posts that are marked like this? Or do they get sent and accepted to the list/thread automatically once you are subscribed? ![]() [Note the highlighted warning message above. What should I do with this information?] I sincerely hope this help clarify some of the possible registration issues, that new users face. Best Regards, Gene |
In reply to this post by Corinna Vinschen-2
Greetings, Corinna Vinschen!
>> >>> I know that this is a pointless exercise but I'll say it anyway: people >> >>> who think that they can have a private chat with Corinna or Larry by >> >>> sending email to what seem to be their private email addresses will just >> >>> show up in the spam trap, possibly even causing spamassassin to think >> >>> that they are a spammer. >> >>> >> >>> We mention in multiple places that cygwin-related issues should go to >> >>> this list. So, please don't bother trying to send private email unless >> >>> you've been specifically asked to do so. You'll also be doing me a >> >>> favor because I won't have to spend time cleaning out the spam traps. >> >> >> >>Well, here goes nothing. >> >> >> >>I am happy to admit that I'm one of those persons. The problem is >> >>exactly that what you claim we "should do" versus what is actually >> >>possible to do. If any of the list maintainers had actually bothered >> >>to try to register to these email lists, you would probably have found >> >>out that your spam filters are set so high, that it is impossible for >> >>normal people to even register to these lists! >> >> > FYI, The Cygwin list has 1212 subscribers with 89 new joiners since >> > January 1. I'm the "list maintainer" and I'm obviously registered. >> > The same software that handles Cygwin also handles gcc.gnu.org and >> > sourceware.org. There are many other mailing lists under those >> > domains, and some of them have even more subscribers. >> >> The point was, it's nowhere mentioned, who to contact in case of list issues. >> Not in list mail headers, neither on list's mailman web page. >> I've had multiple mails blocked for containing "foreign language" (how can I >> help? It's Microsoft smarts to translate group names to make everyone >> unhappy), and I multiple times tried to find the address to appeal to. To no >> avail. >> Yes, I vaguely recalled, that there supposed to be "<list>-owner" address, >> but it's only my poor memory. How can I trust her without confirmation? > On the other hand, the "postmaster" account exists everywhere... Not to argue, but postmaster is often not the right person to contact mailing list owner. Now, given proper explanation, I realize this is not the case for cygwin mailing list, and I've already pinned Christopher's message for future reference. -- WBR, Andrey Repin ([hidden email]) 12.03.2014, <23:32> Sorry for my terrible english... -- Problem reports: http://cygwin.com/problems.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/ Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple |
On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 12:56:46AM +0400, Andrey Repin wrote:
>Greetings, Corinna Vinschen! > >>> >>> I know that this is a pointless exercise but I'll say it anyway: people >>> >>> who think that they can have a private chat with Corinna or Larry by >>> >>> sending email to what seem to be their private email addresses will just >>> >>> show up in the spam trap, possibly even causing spamassassin to think >>> >>> that they are a spammer. >>> >>> >>> >>> We mention in multiple places that cygwin-related issues should go to >>> >>> this list. So, please don't bother trying to send private email unless >>> >>> you've been specifically asked to do so. You'll also be doing me a >>> >>> favor because I won't have to spend time cleaning out the spam traps. >>> >> >>> >>Well, here goes nothing. >>> >> >>> >>I am happy to admit that I'm one of those persons. The problem is >>> >>exactly that what you claim we "should do" versus what is actually >>> >>possible to do. If any of the list maintainers had actually bothered >>> >>to try to register to these email lists, you would probably have found >>> >>out that your spam filters are set so high, that it is impossible for >>> >>normal people to even register to these lists! >>> >>> > FYI, The Cygwin list has 1212 subscribers with 89 new joiners since >>> > January 1. I'm the "list maintainer" and I'm obviously registered. >>> > The same software that handles Cygwin also handles gcc.gnu.org and >>> > sourceware.org. There are many other mailing lists under those >>> > domains, and some of them have even more subscribers. >>> >>> The point was, it's nowhere mentioned, who to contact in case of list issues. >>> Not in list mail headers, neither on list's mailman web page. >>> I've had multiple mails blocked for containing "foreign language" (how can I >>> help? It's Microsoft smarts to translate group names to make everyone >>> unhappy), and I multiple times tried to find the address to appeal to. To no >>> avail. >>> Yes, I vaguely recalled, that there supposed to be "<list>-owner" address, >>> but it's only my poor memory. How can I trust her without confirmation? > >> On the other hand, the "postmaster" account exists everywhere... > >Not to argue, but postmaster is often not the right person to contact mailing >list owner. >Now, given proper explanation, I realize this is not the case for cygwin >mailing list, and I've already pinned Christopher's message for future >reference. And presumably you won't argue with reference at the Cygwin list page which says "If you have any questions or problems with the mailing lists, see the Sourceware mailing list FAQs. " and points you at a location which specifically answers your question. The sourceware faq is mentioned *twice* at http://cygwin.com/lists.html so your claims that it isn't mentioned anywhere would seem to indicate that you didn't search too hard. Ditto, your claim that nothing is mentioned in the headers. -- Problem reports: http://cygwin.com/problems.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/ Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple |
In reply to this post by Christopher Faylor-8
> >Alternatively, as cgf has already mentioned, > ><http://cygwin.com/lists.html> states "If you have *any* questions or > >problems with the mailing lists, see the Sourceware mailing list FAQs" > >with a link to that same Sourceware page. And that page includes the > >following: > > Thank you! Can I get a gold star here for someone with good reading > skills? > > cgf Awarded! http://cygwin.com/goldstars/#AD -- Problem reports: http://cygwin.com/problems.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/ Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple |
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