First experiences with WSL (a.k.a. Bash on Windows)

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First experiences with WSL (a.k.a. Bash on Windows)

Warren Young-2
I’d been putting off playing with WSL until it got closer to release.  I decided that with the release of Windows 10 Anniversary Edition, that day had come.

I’ve only been using it for a few hours, and have already found a bunch of broken things:

- Nothing involving raw sockets works.  That means no ping, no host(1), no ifconfig…  For some reason, DNS does work; apparently host is doing it differently than glibc’s resolver.

- /etc/hosts is ignored.

- screen(1) is still broken.  (I say “still” because that was one of the early complaints about WSL; like, day-of-announcement early.)  For some reason tmux does work.  Apparently ptys aren’t completely broken now.  That means sshd might also work, but I really don’t want to try it at the moment.

- The terminal emulation seems a bit screwy.  I’ve gotten it to render things clearly incorrectly.  apt(1) seems especially good at doing this, probably because of the way it puts its progress bar at the bottom line of the screen, then removes it on exit without completely redrawing the screen as, say, vi does, which doesn’t seem to have this problem.  Be prepared to hit Ctrl-L frequently.

- “Installing” it is about as easy as installing OpenBSD: all text, a fair bit of fiddling around required, and in the end important things don’t work because you haven’t manually configured them yet.

A good example is that you don’t get a Desktop or Start menu icon, and unless you know to add --login to the Bash shortcut you create manually, you won’t get a login shell, and even if you do that, you don’t start out in your HOME directory, apparently due to a weakness in /etc/profile and such.

- They’re still shipping Ubuntu 14.04.  I’d have thought they’d worked out the problems preventing them from moving to 16.04 by now.  (I completely understand why they’d want to stick to LTS releases only, and I support it.)

- As expected, you can’t run native Windows PE executables from inside WSL.

- It was billed as near-native speed, but a configure script I timed took about 6x as long on the same hardware, and a large C++ project build took almost 3x as long as under Linux.  (i.e. Both tests on a VM running on the same host.)

While monitoring Resource Monitor, I see that I’m not pegging all 4 cores in this box in all situations that I think I ought to be able to.

I haven’t tried comparing this to Cygwin yet.  The comparison to a Linux VM seems more appropriate.

- Java’s unusable.  Known bug — #746 on GitHub — not yet fixed.

- A bunch of CPAN modules fail to install because directory link counts don’t work in a POSIXly correct fashion under WSL, and Perl’s MakeMaker facility apparently cares about this.  The workaround makes me queasy.  (GitHub issue #186.)  I still haven’t been able to get Date::Manip installed.

- Windows Console < MinTTY.  I miss copy-on-select and Shift-Insert most.



Stuff that does work as hoped-for:

- apt!  I have yet to find something I wanted that either wasn’t available or didn’t work once installed, outside of the problems mentioned above.



Stuff that works even though I thought it wouldn’t:

- WSL processes show up in the Windows Task Manager.  I’m certain I heard that this didn’t work back in late March when WSL was announced.



Bottom line: Not yet ready for prime time.
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Re: First experiences with WSL (a.k.a. Bash on Windows)

Mark Geisert
Warren Young wrote:
[...]

Would you kindly https://cygwin.com/acronyms/#PCYMTWLL ?
Thank you,

..mark

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Re: First experiences with WSL (a.k.a. Bash on Windows)

Warren Young
On Aug 10, 2016, at 9:59 PM, Mark Geisert <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Warren Young wrote:
> [...]
>
> Would you kindly https://cygwin.com/acronyms/#PCYMTWLL ?

That option doesn’t exist in this program.

I don’t see the problem anyway.  One unbroken line per paragraph is trivial to wrap in software, and then you get breaks where *you* like them, rather than where *I* like them.

Choosing not to insert hard breaks in paragraphs also allows me to post the too-common long modern URLs without using a shortener, so you can see where I intend for you to go before you click.

If your advice is to switch to a different mailer, there are only two others that have even slight appeal to me on this platform, and the maker of the first has repeatedly threatened to abandon its development, and the second costs more money than I believe the problem is worth.  After all, *I* don’t have a problem with the status quo.  So, do you want to buy me a software license to solve *your* problem? :)
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Re: First experiences with WSL (a.k.a. Bash on Windows)

Warren Young-2
In reply to this post by Warren Young-2
On Aug 10, 2016, at 3:57 AM, Warren Young <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I still haven’t been able to get Date::Manip installed.

That problem’s been diagnosed now, but not fixed.  It’s ultimately due to an inability to contact dbus, which Ubuntu depends on at a deep level, and dbus doesn’t work under WSL yet.

That must have a whole bunch of other knock-on effects.
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Re: First experiences with WSL (a.k.a. Bash on Windows)

Corinna Vinschen-2
In reply to this post by Warren Young
On Aug 11 12:34, Warren Young wrote:
> On Aug 10, 2016, at 9:59 PM, Mark Geisert <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > Warren Young wrote:
> > [...]
> >
> > Would you kindly https://cygwin.com/acronyms/#PCYMTWLL ?
>
> That option doesn’t exist in this program.

It does in any program.  Just enter your LF manually.  It's not
complicated, I do this in vim all the time to keep the linelength in
check.

There's also https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1855 which asks for a max
line length of 65.  Yes, I don't follow this exactly either, I'm using a
max. linelength of 72 typically, but at least I *do* add my LFs
manually, out of courtesy to my readers.

And yes, there are still folks out there using text-only MUAs like mutt
in an 80 columns terminal.  I do.


> I don’t see the problem anyway.  One unbroken line per paragraph is trivial to wrap in software, and then you get breaks where *you* like them, rather than where *I* like them.

You're lucky.  You never had to reply to your own mails.  I do and it's
seriously ugly to see and edit mails with extremly long lines in vim.
To be able to add a comment after a single sentence, one has to manually
break your lines for you from inside the editor.

So instead of just using linebreaks out of courtesy to allow others to
comment on your mails easily, you push the onus on the recipient.

Bottom line is, it just isn't fun to reply to those mails, so I do it
less and less often.


Corinna

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Re: First experiences with WSL (a.k.a. Bash on Windows)

Warren Young-2
On Aug 11, 2016, at 2:44 PM, Corinna Vinschen <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On Aug 11 12:34, Warren Young wrote:
>> On Aug 10, 2016, at 9:59 PM, Mark Geisert <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> Warren Young wrote:
>>> [...]
>>>
>>> Would you kindly https://cygwin.com/acronyms/#PCYMTWLL ?
>>
>> That option doesn’t exist in this program.
>
> It does in any program.  Just enter your LF manually.

Seriously?  In 2016?

> And yes, there are still folks out there using text-only MUAs like mutt
> in an 80 columns terminal.  I do.

http://www.rdrop.com/docs/mutt/manual330.html

>> I don’t see the problem anyway.  One unbroken line per paragraph is trivial to wrap in software, and then you get breaks where *you* like them, rather than where *I* like them.
>
> You're lucky.  You never had to reply to your own mails.  I do and it's
> seriously ugly to see and edit mails with extremly long lines in vim.

Add this to your .vimrc:

  map <F2> !}fmt -w72<CR>

Problem solved.
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Re: First experiences with WSL (a.k.a. Bash on Windows)

Corinna Vinschen-2
On Aug 11 14:50, Warren Young wrote:

> On Aug 11, 2016, at 2:44 PM, Corinna Vinschen <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > On Aug 11 12:34, Warren Young wrote:
> >> On Aug 10, 2016, at 9:59 PM, Mark Geisert <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Warren Young wrote:
> >>> [...]
> >>>
> >>> Would you kindly https://cygwin.com/acronyms/#PCYMTWLL ?
> >>
> >> That option doesn’t exist in this program.
> >
> > It does in any program.  Just enter your LF manually.
>
> Seriously?  In 2016?
Yes.

> > And yes, there are still folks out there using text-only MUAs like mutt
> > in an 80 columns terminal.  I do.
>
> http://www.rdrop.com/docs/mutt/manual330.html
>
> >> I don’t see the problem anyway.  One unbroken line per paragraph is trivial to wrap in software, and then you get breaks where *you* like them, rather than where *I* like them.
> >
> > You're lucky.  You never had to reply to your own mails.  I do and it's
> > seriously ugly to see and edit mails with extremly long lines in vim.
>
> Add this to your .vimrc:
>
>   map <F2> !}fmt -w72<CR>
>
> Problem solved.
And again you're putting the onus on the recipient.  Nice.

Well, never mind, this leads to nothing.


Corinna

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Re: First experiences with WSL (a.k.a. Bash on Windows)

Herbert Stocker-2
On 11.08.2016 23:05, Corinna Vinschen wrote:

> On Aug 11 14:50, Warren Young wrote:
>> On Aug 11, 2016, at 2:44 PM, Corinna Vinschen <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> On Aug 11 12:34, Warren Young wrote:
>>>> On Aug 10, 2016, at 9:59 PM, Mark Geisert <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Warren Young wrote:
>>>>> [...]
>>>>>
>>>>> Would you kindly https://cygwin.com/acronyms/#PCYMTWLL ?
>>>>
>>>> That option doesn’t exist in this program.
>>>
>>> It does in any program.  Just enter your LF manually.
>>
>> Seriously?  In 2016?
>
> Yes.

Me too.
And i will also manually add line breaks in 2017.

Herbert

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Re: First experiences with WSL (a.k.a. Bash on Windows)

Mark Geisert
In reply to this post by Warren Young
Warren Young wrote:

> On Aug 10, 2016, at 9:59 PM, Mark Geisert <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Warren Young wrote:
>> [...]
>>
>> Would you kindly https://cygwin.com/acronyms/#PCYMTWLL ?
>
> That option doesn’t exist in this program.
>
> I don’t see the problem anyway.  One unbroken line per paragraph is trivial to wrap in software, and then you get breaks where *you* like them, rather than where *I* like them.
>
> Choosing not to insert hard breaks in paragraphs also allows me to post the too-common long modern URLs without using a shortener, so you can see where I intend for you to go before you click.
>
> If your advice is to switch to a different mailer, there are only two others that have even slight appeal to me on this platform, and the maker of the first has repeatedly threatened to abandon its development, and the second costs more money than I believe the problem is worth.  After all, *I* don’t have a problem with the status quo.  So, do you want to buy me a software license to solve *your* problem? :)
>

Here is an example of what your posts tend to look like to me on those rare
occasions when I bother to expand Chrome to full-screen to read them:
http://maxrnd.com/~mark/Warren.png

I don't see all of your text.  I'd like to be able to read it without having
to go full-screen or scroll left-right or use some other reader.  This is
Chrome reading the Cygwin mail archives; can't get much more vanilla than that.
  Chrome doesn't seem to have an option to wrap.

Of course it's your choice.  But if nobody said anything about it you
wouldn't be aware that some folks can't read your usually thoughtful and
detailed posts.
Respectfully,

..mark

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Re: First experiences with WSL (a.k.a. Bash on Windows)

Robert Pendell-5
On Fri, Aug 12, 2016 at 2:21 AM, Mark Geisert wrote:

>
> Warren Young wrote:
>>
>> On Aug 10, 2016, at 9:59 PM, Mark Geisert <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Warren Young wrote:
>>> [...]
>>>
>>> Would you kindly https://cygwin.com/acronyms/#PCYMTWLL ?
>>
>>
>> That option doesn’t exist in this program.
>>
>> I don’t see the problem anyway.  One unbroken line per paragraph is trivial to wrap in software, and then you get breaks where *you* like them, rather than where *I* like them.
>>
>> Choosing not to insert hard breaks in paragraphs also allows me to post the too-common long modern URLs without using a shortener, so you can see where I intend for you to go before you click.
>>
>> If your advice is to switch to a different mailer, there are only two others that have even slight appeal to me on this platform, and the maker of the first has repeatedly threatened to abandon its development, and the second costs more money than I believe the problem is worth.  After all, *I* don’t have a problem with the status quo.  So, do you want to buy me a software license to solve *your* problem? :)
>>
>
> Here is an example of what your posts tend to look like to me on those rare
> occasions when I bother to expand Chrome to full-screen to read them:
> http://maxrnd.com/~mark/Warren.png
>
> I don't see all of your text.  I'd like to be able to read it without having
> to go full-screen or scroll left-right or use some other reader.  This is
> Chrome reading the Cygwin mail archives; can't get much more vanilla than that.  Chrome doesn't seem to have an option to wrap.
>
> Of course it's your choice.  But if nobody said anything about it you
> wouldn't be aware that some folks can't read your usually thoughtful and
> detailed posts.
> Respectfully,
>
> ..mark
>

(Note: My response was intentionally typed without manually hitting
enter as I want to see the wrapping in gmail and see if it actually
hits 78 characters or if it runs on)

This actually went off topic from the original message.  In regards to
the original message I found that it does an ok job in the areas I
cared about however it has only partial shared memory support.  It is
broken in some places like node.js doesn't entirely work with it
however I got non server node.js apps to work in it.  It also worked
for 3DS homebrew development which was a good thing because I couldn't
get the Windows environment for that to work properly for some reason
and it works fine in Linux so even though it might run a litle slower
it still worked out better for me.

Given that they have plenty of work to do.  Cygwin has had a huge head
start on them and managed to get many things emulated/implemented
already.  I'd personally be interested to see if they can get it done
right but I don't have my hopes up.

Now then as far as long lines?  It is better for the sender to handle
it.  Mailing lists are archived in most cases and it stores the
messages as sent by the client.  Most of the time the messages do not
wrap and when they do it wraps at the window border.  With larger
resolutions it looks like a huge line.  Wrapping at 72 or even 80
characters looks infinitely better than a run on line on the screen.
I think someone already posted an image of what one of the messages
looked like in the archive.


Robert Pendell
A perfect world is one of chaos.
Keybase: http://keybase.io/shinji257